As we’re now <12 months until Microsoft drop the axe on Windows 10, I was wondering what the repair community’s perspective is on running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.
Will ‘we’ install Windows 11 when fixing PCs, aware that Microsoft may protest-update at some point?
Will ‘we’ play by the rules and hurl working PCs into skips?
Neither situation is perfect. In PC terms, we haven’t faced this issue for fifteen years thanks to the ‘free’ upgrade path from Windows 7 - 10.
Of course, installing flavours of Linux is theoretically a solution. I’m yet to be convinced that it is ready to be a consumer-fit product. I’m not trying to agitate the Linux fans in our community - I use it myself - but in 20 years, I’ve only ever had one customer agree to a Linux install and countless others asking me to uninstall it.
Currently, I’m seeing an increasing number of customers that are opting to not repair Windows 10 PCs because they don’t want to ‘risk’ running unsupported software. This includes non-OS fixes such as batteries and screens. I suspect that this will increase as we get further towards Oct '25.
Could there be more opportunities now leading up to the win 10 death date to provide onboarding on to linux? Is this something the linux community can get behind? Or will the demand of linux grow which will motivate the linux programmers to improve it’s usability by building how-to-use programs into the OS? I think there could be valuable insight from people who might be interested in Linux but have felt overwhelmed or excluded by various social, technical and usability issues.
I have a laptop that I could bring to an online event that I’ve been thinking of installing Linux and removing win10.
The main issue is which devices are unsupported - or more specifically, why. It makes sense to install Windows 11 on devices that are not ‘officially’ supported, up to a point - and that point isn’t necessarily some arbitrary point in time when Microsoft detects this and forces you to stop, but more critically when Microsoft (or whoever) is relying on processor features that are present on the officially-supported CPUs and simply non-existent on the unsupported CPUs
The software will simply stop working, at that point
Lee - I read your post and it’s clear that your customers don’t think Linux is a viable alternative to Windows. I suppose that means you might be getting plenty of 11-incompatible PCs/Laptops to recycle/resell to Linux-friendly users; is that a real market for you, or is the cost of installing to a usable level too high and the margin you can get too low?
I must admit my experience of Linux desktop GUIs is not good - IMO Windows trounces them in usability even though the underlying OS and shell experience of Linux is far superior. Why is Linux desktop so much worse? Seems like X11 is the millstone.
Agreed. I suppose that is the main worry with (essentially) hacking/kludging/adapting the registry to bypass requirements.
However, given that (relatively) old 8th Gen Intel & 3rd Gen Ryzen are compatible, I can’t think of what feature Microsoft would introduce at this stage which would tap a CPU component which isn’t already in use. Particularly if we factored in laptop chips which (usually) have fewer features.
The only demand I can think of that a future update could introduce would regard the fTPM. At the moment it has to be present, but not necessarily used.
I think you’ve summed up the Linux issue perfect, Janna.
‘Linux’ have an open goal here, to really grab market share and finally chip into the mainstream, but ‘they’ are unable to do.
Of course, I referred to ‘Linux’ and ‘they’ because of the fragmentation of the Linux platform - a fundamental which is central to why (IMHO) Linux has never ‘made it’ in the consumer space.
Microsoft has hundreds of thousands of employees with trillions of $$$ to throw at marketing, awareness and paying OEMS to pre-load, whereas most Linux distros are down to a team of volunteers and word of mouth.
When W11 was announced, I hoped that ChromeOS Flex may be the natural exit from Windows, but that project seems to have slowed and there are numerous rumours about its longevity.
There absolutely is an opportunity to educate people about Linux, but squeezing that into the repair process is tough. Most people (in my experience) want a fix which gives them exactly what they had before - and switching an OS isn’t something to be done on a whim.
It’s a good question. Selling Linux units has never worked for my customers. Actually, Linux has never worked for our customers.
We’re ‘computing for the scared’ - the huge sector of the market that some may describe as technophobic (and there are some that are genuinely terrified of computing), but mostly it is people that don’t care about tech, so don’t wish to learn anything different, because they really can’t be bothered. I’m the same with knitting…no crochet for me….
I’ve mention many times on the PCP podcast that even selling established non-Windows platforms like Chromebooks is super, super tough. When I sell something, I want the user to be happy with their purchase as I think they will really enjoy using the device. When I start waffling on about Chromebooks, the fear of change spreads across their faces and despite my best reassurances that all will be well, most customers are unwilling to jump from Windows. (Perhaps my sales patter is awful…)
If you give people a machine they can’t use (or don’t like using), they will be unhappy. If you sell people a machine they can’t use (or don’t like using), they have legal rights for returns and refunds - and it doesn’t take many of those before bankruptcy beckons. In both situations, there are disgruntled customers which is bad for everyone.
Like you, I love Linux. I would love to put my W11 onto Mint but I have one or two apps that are Windows only and, frankly, I can’t be faffed setting up VM/x86 translations.
In general no, because due to a) the very restrictive space limitations in a laptop, and b) the additional cost, and c) sockets might introduce unreliability on a portable device that may be knocked about a bit, so they are manufactured without sockets.
Also a new CPU often has a different pinout from the old one so wouldn’t drop in even if the laptop had a socket.
And a new CPU might often be more powerful/faster which often means greater power consumption, therefore more power to dissipate which may result in overheating.
Sadly all those technical reasons for not having forwards compatibility seem to prevent exactly what the owner of a laptop would prefer which is to not have to buy a new laptop. Microsoft don’t help when they choose their compatibility requirements which according to the thread you linked to aren’t actually functional differences in the 8th gen given that Windows 11 seems to run perfectly well on a 7th gen.
Recently I’ve been swapping some AMD desktop CPUs to cross the threshold. Removing AMD Athlons for Ryzen 3s.
AMD’s AM4 desktop socket takes an impressively wide range of chip, so current desktops with uncompatible chips can be fixed…for the price of a new CPU.
Intel went through a raft of desktop changes around the cross-over time. 7th Gens were Kaby Lake, 8th Gen were Coffee Lake and they’re not interchangable.
@Ian_Barnard - you say your experience with Linux desktop GUIs is not good. I wonder why? I’d swap a Mint desktop, or a “proper” Win7 start button for a Win10/11 GUI any day! With Win7 I could find everything easily because it was simple to group apps together on the start menu in logical groups, such as Graphics, Sound & Music, Intenet, Accessories etc.
If, in a senior moment, I can’t remember the name of a vital but little used app I have no way to search for it logically, and it becomes like looking for a vital screw I’ve dropped o the floor! OK, I suppose I could organise my desktop icons into logically grouped desktop folders like we used to with Windows 3.11. Is that what innovation looks like in 2024?!
Sorry I should have been clearer - I haven’t found using Linux desktops much fun but that isn’t based on an extensive survey. Also I’ve only used them over remote desktop (using xrdp) or occasionally VNC. I’m too tied to one app Notepad++, which is Windows-only, to consider going Linux on my work laptop. Actually same for my personal laptop, although that might be closer apart from Office apps.
Ha Windows 3.11. In Windows 11 you can search apps by clicking in the Search box in the taskbar and typing something about the name, for example type zip and the results show me 7-zip along with a few other things.
But that’s the point! If I can’t remember the name of a utility I can’t search for it! Ever since smartphones made a screenful of icons the standard UI, M$ has ignored the fact that different people’s brains work differently. Mine works predominantly in words rather than images, and hence I can scan a list of words much more quickly and efficiently than a screen of icons, many of which have only a tenuous connection in my brain with the app they represent.
And I’d be surprised if there’s nothing as good as notepad++ on Linux - cybersecurity pros almost invariably prefer Linux on account of the richness of the available toolset. And I’m sure none of those tools would have notepad++’s annoying habit of offering you updates you don’t want for formatters you never use nearly every time you launch it!
But I suspect we’re in serious danger of veering well off topic. At this rate if we’re not careful we’ll end up in vi vs emacs flame war!
Maybe you are a few senior++ years ahead of me If you want to use vi or emacs, go ahead.
FYI you can disable Notepad++ intensely irritating default of offering updates by unchecking menu->Settings->Preferences->MISC->Enable Notepad++ auto-updater. This leaves you the opportunity to occasionally check for updates using menu–>?->Update Notepad++. While you’re in Settings->Preferences disable the mystifying autocomplete by going to Auto-Completion and unchecking everything. There now that’s a more sensible NP++ experience.
I guess there are alternatives to NP++ but it’s a swiss knife that I’m accustomed to - I can search (i.e. grep but without having to type so much) anywhere for anything, can mark searched lines, copy them to somewhere else, you can script it in Python (only 2.7 but thats good enough for anything I’ve ever needed), can sort lines, can do column-wise edits… - yes there are things like atom and visual code, but NP++ does it for me. On Windows.
Don’t get me wrong Linux is a much more proficient OS, but Windows (and apps that run on Windows) does what I need.
It would be helpful if Microsoft would announce the cost of Windows 10 Extended Security Updates for individuals. It seems currently it’s a couple of dollars a year for educational institutions. For business users, it seems prohibitively high. ($427 for 3 years?) No cost as of yet for individuals as far as I understand. But assuming it does appear that would give devices security updates up to 2028.
My problem is hardware. I have a DELL computer which is Windows 11 compatible EXCEPT that my security chip is version 1.0 and not Version 2. There is no way to upgrade the chip with software (and there should be!), so no Windows 11 compatibility.
Stephen, you can install Windows 11 with TPM 1.0 or unsupported CPU using the registry edit described here.
I’ve just done that on a 2013 Dell Inspiron. You will get a disclaimer when you start the install, but I’ve found Windows Update still operates and provides security updates after the install, and the activation key is still valid.
I’m aiming to donate this laptop, and am trying to ensure it will have more than 11 months of useable life. The fact that I’ve been able to get Win 11 on it has encouraged me to attempt a needed screen repair that I wouldn’t have attempted otherwise.
However as major updates are not automatic on unsupported devices and support will run out for update 24H2 in Oct 26. So my donated laptop will only get updates for less than 2 years.
Even as a “power user” I’m loath to be doing regular workarounds to keep unsupported hardware on Windows long-term. However it does seem like an install now would get updates for a couple of years:
By next year unsupported hardware will be 8+ years old and much as I like to keep old machines going I wouldn’t daily drive something that old… or recommend a family member or friend does either.
Agree with some of the comments about Linux as an alternative. I’ve run various versions for certain tasks but wouldn’t push it on non-technical folk unless they just want a browser.
As well as volunteering at my local repair cafe, I’ve been repairing at a donation centre where they refurbish (mainly corporate) devices that still run a supported OS. So I’ve been rescuing some of the other (older, consumer grade) stuff that ends up in the recycle bin and trying out various Linux distros on them with a project in mind. I wanted to put some of these linux laptops out on the table in the waiting area at our repair cafe for people to play with. Our events are so busy that there are probably 15 people at a time sat waiting on average 30 mins.
I got as far as setting up about 6 laptops of various models with a few different flavours of Linux. Configured a Firefox account with default tabs full of repair related links. Put some repair-related story docs, photos and some great old tech video ads from archive.org in the home folders but otherwise left them pretty “box fresh” with default desktops and settings. Also devised a survey to try to find out what people are using now, what they’re going to do when Win10 is unsupported and which if any of the linux laptops they liked and why/why not.
I figured that if the devices were damaged or nicked, well, they were headed to recycling anyway and frankly if someone wanted one they could have it. I can get more. The worst that could happen would be a tea or coffee spillage.
Sadly, the organisers don’t like the idea and so I’m left with what I think is a decent project and nowhere to put it.
Btw, Mint Linux is my daily driver and the one that plays the best across all of the old devices I have. The linuxmint Reddit channel is welcoming Windows refugees on a daily basis.
I’m trying to get the donation charity I repair at to offer the recipients a choice of Win/Lin as they have started to roll out Win11. I don’t like the feeling that we are forcing what I regard as a dystopian OS onto people. The techs there tell me that “people won’t know what to do with Linux” but I think that is quite condescending and dismissive. Local tech charities could start supporting Linux in the same way that they currently support Win/Mac devices. Any number of “digital skills” workshops are held weekly in my borough, no reason why they can’t broaden their offerings. It may not suit everyone but it may suit some and its a start.
So far this year we’ve refurbished and handed out several hundred good quality laptops that are not “Win11 ready”, so that is a few hundred people in Lambeth who will be in need of new devices before too long. All our efforts refurbishing those machines could yet end up in the recycling bin.
Btw, in the past year my repair cafe has had two visitors ask us to install Linux on their old Windows laptop. There is interest out there and I’m interested in trying instead of maintaining the M$ stranglehold. If any Londoners are interested I’d be up for a chat about it.
I love this idea @Monique !!! Have you got photos or video footage of the experiencing linux setup? It would be worth making a blog post about it and sharing it with the wider repair community. Also it adds to the discussion of how to raise awareness about linux and make it feel less daunting. I agree that there is no need to be condescending and dismissive, as well as patronising. The linux community has generally been very alienating and, well frankly, hostile.
@james can you read @Monique 's idea? It would be so good give it some support especially with the death of win10 coming up and win11 not supporting older devices.
Also @Holly_Davies is there a win11 issue podcast episode in the pipeline? This kind of initiative @Monique has tried would be a great addition.
@Janet@james have you been following the win11 issue? Any ideas?
but have felt overwhelmed or excluded by various social, technical and usability issues.
If you want to use vi or emacs, go ahead.