How best to support new Linux users with software updates

[moderator’s note: I’ve copied in the original question from Clare and response from @Lawrence_Hassall from the previous topic – @neil]

I wouldn’t be too worried about updates. Just stick with the LTS - Mint is based on Ubuntu LTS. There shouldn’t be a compelling reason to bother with the 6 month releases. As well - if there’s any reason to install something via a ppa - too often they only work with an LTS. That only leaves an upgrade every two years. While I’ve never had problems - a quick search would show that other people obviously have.

The important thing are the security updates - which is the main reason to move from Windows 10.

I shouldn’t think a rolling release would be suitable for someone transitioning from Windows (I might be wrong - please say so). An issue might be that anyone contributing here always updates via the terminal (like myself). So can people chime in with experience with the GUI updaters (that probably vary from DE to DE)?

As for backups - on Linux it’s as simple as a full copy of the home directory. My favourites (scp & clonezilla) would make windows users recoil in horror. So - what experience do people have with Deja Dup, Lucky Backup, Pika Backup & so on.

If the windows user is familiar with restore points - let them know about Timeshift.

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[I’m copying in the original question from Clare and respond from @Lawrence_Hassall from the previous topic]

I have been using GNU/Linux distributions since my first computer, back in 2004.

Only a few days with Windows XP at the time, convinced me that I HAD to find another software solution. From January to May, I learned bit by bit, everyday, on a 56k RTC connection what I needed to know, in order to choose a distribution, then in order to install it : without loosing Windows, just in case something would not work properly.

But once the distribution was chosen, Mandrake, (the most recent grand-child is Mageia), I just installed a third one, with the help of a teenager, who lived somewhere else, also with a 56k RTC connection.

So, speaking of minefields when it comes to updates (new packages provided regularly), or upgrades (bumping to a new major version of the system), is a tad simple (exagerated, wrong… ). For example:

apply dozens of software updates every day (rolling update model)

The available updates are not part of a rolling update model.

The available updates in a rolling distribution is a rolling model: it means such distributions never need to be bumped to a new major version, be it by reinstalling, or be it with a large upgrade.

So you don’t need to take special precautions before an upgrade, because there are not upgrades : only updates.
Here is a page on the subject : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release

I see also PCLinuxOS quoted as a rolling release, I don’t know now, but from 2008 to 2011 when I used it, it was a “wannabe rolling”, which needed special tweaks to make it happen right.

I think the other distros quoted should be real rolling release distributions, although I have not tried all of them.

The vast majority of distributions (rolling and not rolling altogether) have many repositories in the whole world, you can make your package manager choose the one that works best depending on where you are located, and you can choose to install them, or to not install them. Everything in this regard can be setup to your liking. (Each distribution provide large sets of documentation to know how to set them up and maintain them).

Just, when you update, you should update all the packages listed as available, to be sure to keep your system stable. Some packages need specific dependencies, and they need them in certain versions, which the people who package made sure to do right.

And this is just a brief presentation.

When I upgrade from one major version to another:

  1. I update normally
  2. I reboot
  3. I clean the system (in any Debian or Ubuntu derivative which is not Linux Mint, specific menus in the Synaptic package manager makes it easy to remove cruft, leftovers, packages which are no more needed)
  4. Then I upgrade, watch the messages (I use the terminal) carefully while doing, and choose options according to what I think best, when options are presented. So far, I have had to reinstall only once, in about 15 years of use. (My /home directory is always on its own partition, which makes it easier to reinstall, using the “Another” method).

Thinking : screencasts done using a virtual machine to show how to do that might be helpful, I suppose.

Now, what are rolling releases? I think most people here won’t use them. They are Archlinux, and some of its derivatives, I guess.

I never had trouble with Archlinux that could not be solved with sometimes a little help from the Arch community, during the 6 years I have used it, but I changed for Ubuntu because I could not install it to simple user’s computers, it is not user friendly enough, and I have been using Ubuntu since many years now, and sometimes Debian, on secondary computers, plus tried other ones in Virtualbox.
About updates and upgrades : you will notice you are not prompted to update if you change the dedicated setup, and you will notice you never have to wait during shutdowns and reboots, because updates have been done. When the package manager has finished working, it is finished. (If a new kernel has been installed, the symbolic link that activates it will be effective after a reboot, but it won’t slow it down).

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Another option is Ubuntu Pro - which gives ten years worth of updates for the LTS. Ten years of security fixes for both ‘main’ and ‘universe’. It’s free for no more than five computers. You need to sign up - but only need to give very basic contact details. Here’s an Ubuntu Pro FAQ.

Remember: anyone still using Windows 10 is already running a ten year old OS.

Looks like it’s supposed to work with more than just regular Gnome Ubuntu LTS. But there may be catches with the flavours. According to this discussion some flavours may miss out (Lubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, and Kubuntu).

Though - this is what I get typing ‘sudo pro status’ on Kubuntu:

SERVICE          AVAILABLE  DESCRIPTION
anbox-cloud      yes        Scalable Android in the cloud
esm-apps         yes        Expanded Security Maintenance for Applications
esm-infra        yes        Expanded Security Maintenance for Infrastructure
landscape        yes        Management and administration tool for Ubuntu
livepatch        yes        Canonical Livepatch service
realtime-kernel  yes        Ubuntu kernel with PREEMPT_RT patches integrated
usg              yes        Security compliance and audit tools

For a list of all Ubuntu Pro services, run 'pro status --all'

This machine is not attached to an Ubuntu Pro subscription.
See https://ubuntu.com/pro

You may notice that Kubuntu LTS is officially supported for only three years worth of updates - but that’s because it’s what KDE work to (meaning the DE only gets three years of updates) - though looks like everything else should still get five years - but don’t quote me on that.

When an upgrade between versions does need to happen with Linux - there can be issues. In my case I do some DTP - so it is likely to remove Scribus & third party fonts - anything it doesn’t see as ‘one of it’s own’. But - to put this into context - there can also be problems updating Windows 10 to 11. The precautions are much the same - back up data (home directory) - and as the upgrade starts make careful note of what it wants to delete so they can be reinstalled later.

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I have read next year the 26.04 edition will be supported during 12 years.

The Redhad free/opensource derivatives Alma Linux and Rocky Linux (I believe better fit for companies, but whoever wants to give them a try can download them):
https://wiki.almalinux.org/release-notes and https://wiki.rockylinux.org/rocky/version.
“ support until 31 May 2027, and security support until 31 May 2032.” and “Rocky Linux 9 Blue Onyx July 14, 2022 May 31, 2027 May 31, 2032 9.5 (November 19, 2024)”.

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For image backups I like Fox Clone. The developer is active on forums, and he made it with the goal of being easy to use.

https://foxclone.org

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I fear we might be veering off into technical discussions which would just confuse most people migrating from Windows. My original point was that most will want their OS/apps to update on a similar cadence to Windows or their phone - that means not too frequently but also not losing support within months.

I’d need to do a test install of Mint and Zorin to check the default update settings. I think both prompt to do updates on a weekly basis and the user can choose to proceed or not. They can also choose to automate everything as per Windows. Not sure if that can be done during setup or has to be a post-install activity though?

Call me biased against rolling releases but my personal experience of using one (Manjaro) was absolutely terrible!

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It looks interesting, but outdated : https://foxclone.org/downloads.html
Another one which is up to date, based on the well know Clonezilla (under the hood, but with a very nice graphical user interface) is Rescuezilla. I have used it many times since a pair of years, it works very well: https://rescuezilla.com/

not too frequently is always up to you with the major Linux distributions. You can update when you want, if you want, even not to update at all. You won’t get reminders and notifications if you setup your package manager the way you like it.
Usually the users I know like it better with the updates enabled to install themselves without asking, as much as possible. The graphical tools make it easy, in Ubuntu and Debian to set it up this way at least for the security updates.
(In Synaptic : “Menu Setup > Repositories > Tab Updates” then look in the drop down options).

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Useful for me to think about this from two perspectives:

  • what I as a volunteer fixer need to be aware of to help people out at events
  • what someone who just wants to run their computer smoothly might want to hear

Some good discussions of the first point already in this thread! Starting with Clare’s question as a starting point for the latter:

if I switch to Linux do I have to do some kind of installing going forward to keep it up-to-date, or does it do it all for you?

What would I say to someone at a Repair Cafe who has asked me that?

“You need to install minor updates to keep it up-to-date and secure. I can set it up so that these are installed automatically, if you’d like me too. In 2029 you’d need to upgrade to the next ‘major’ version of Linux Mint. That’s a bit like going from Win 10 to Win 11. You’ll probably be confident to do that yourself at that point, but you can always come back to the Repair Cafe for help when that happens!”

Click for a more long-winded description of my thought process behind this...
  • The details would obviously depend on which distribution of Linux I was helping them with.
  • Depending on who I was speaking to I might tell them that, but I think eyes will glaze over in most cases if you start going down that route. Better to just have a distribution in mind IMO.
  • In most cases, unless there’s a clear reason that the hardware wouldn’t support it, I would use a version of Linux Mint (as it’s good for new users coming from Windows, and I personally know it reasonably well).
  • All recent Linux Mints are long-term support. 22 is supported until April 2029, at which point you’d need to do a major version update.
  • Until April 2029, all you need to do is install updates from the update manager. You can set the update manager to automatically install updates. I’d ask, but I’d expect most people would want that.
  • They recommend to set up snapshots with Timeshift if you have automatic updates. I don’t use it and I’ve never had a problem when doing manual updates, so would suspect there’d be no problem with automatic updates. But worth investigating Timeshift, perhaps for another thread…
  • I’ve found major version upgrades in Mint to be a little bit convoluted in the past, so going from 22 to 23 in 2029 won’t be completely straightforward. But I’ve never had any issues if you follow the instructions.
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A post was split to a new topic: Suggestion for a unified approach to Linux at Repair Cafe

what someone who just wants to run their computer smoothly might want to hear

My clients and friends want to hear : it is simple and it works! They also want to know someone will be there for them if in trouble with anything (printer, scanner, connecting the smartphone to access the data… You name it!)

I dislike Linux Mint, for the reasons I pointed in my answer to Lawrence Hassal a few minutes ago.
I usually go for Bento Openbox Remix (linuxvillage.org), if the machine has around 4GB RAM, a dual-core CPU and can’t have more, Xubuntu if the machine has 4GB or more and a 4 cores CPU or more, in machines sluggish with either of them, MX Linux, is the best choice I can think of, simple, beautiful, very snappy and has been out there a very long time.
They have a great community too, and work hand in hand with antiX Linux (which is very nice too, but a little bit more complicated imo, as it has maaaany possibilities and many home made tools… )

In my best computer, a Lenovo ThinkPad T15 with lots of resource, I installed Bento Openbox, and added the full xfce4-desktop metapackage on top of it. (Openbox is a window manager, the distro could theoretically get any full fledged desktop manager).

This one should be known everywhere! https://www.delafond.org/roman_photos/index_en.html Linux in pictures

3 posts were merged into an existing topic: Finding the best Linux solutions for new users

I’ve moved the posts on preferred distributions to the relevant topic. Let’s try and keep this one about updates. Thanks!

Another thing I’d like to raise (I haven’t seen it mentioned) - the importance of configuring the Update Manager for local mirrors. That prompt may be overlooked or ignored - slowing down the whole process.

While in the UK, Europe, North America you may be physically close to the default mirrors & so maybe not an issue - spare a thought for a Repair Cafe in India or New Zealand trying to update from a default mirror in the UK (Mint).

Even with a local mirror - it can sometimes be slow. That’s why I’m surprised people here mention that the initial update is routinely done within the time constraints of a Repair Cafe session. What are people’s experience with this?

I want to do a deep dive this week into one of the ‘immutable distros’ (Endless OS) as they take a completely different approach to the whole process. From what I understand - they form a single image of the updated OS which is downloaded in the background - once you switch to that the previous image you were using is retained - so you can instantly revert back if there’s anything wrong. I’ll report back on that.

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It seems like this is almost automatic now. During the last installations I did, it selected Belgium and France automatically, and an Italian friend just confirmed that recent installations do the same for him as well.

As for Endless OS, I’m currently testing it on my end too, hum, offline mode. I’m doing a thorough security check because I have some doubts about certain apps… When I plug it into my secure network, the connection drops instantly, so I prefer to be sure.

Otherwise, yes, it seems like an excellent initiative. Initially designed for developing countries, but it’s perfectly compatible with the Repair Café approach for people who might not have a stable connection and would benefit from an offline-capable system during repair events.

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This is what I’m getting with fresh installs of Mint 22.1.

First launch of Update Manager - it gives a prompt ‘Do you want to switch to a local mirror?’ ‘YES’ ‘NO’.

Clicking ‘YES’ brings up Software Sources and showing the default mirrors: a ‘Main’ at packages.linuxmint.com (apparently in the US) - and a ‘Base’ at archive.ubuntu.com (apparently in the UK). You then need to double click each mirror to find the best locals (with no hint that you need to do that). Not best for new, inexperienced, users.

Am I missing something?

@Len

I don’t know if you are missing something, but Linux Mint might be. Their Synaptic is not the original one, as I have explained in other posts.

In Debian, Ubuntu, antiX Linux, MX Linux and any Debian and Ubuntu other derivatives, you will go to the menu Setup > Repositories > Click on the Download From drop down menu, then choose Other… and once there, you can click on the button at the right : “Select the best server”.

This will take a few seconds or minutes, and it will pick one for you based on the time a ping sent to all servers will need to reply. Once you get the result, you can click on the button “Choose a server”.

When a new server is chosen, don’t forget to reload the information for the sources (it would be the same as getting a new catalog of the packages available in that repository).

I am not sure Linux Mint provides these kind of options. Does it? I just remember I would not recognize the Synaptic I have always known, last time I had a Linux Mint in front of me.